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 X-Force - Fight For Destiny - Forum —› English - general discussions —› Suggestion underwater mission

Autor Mitteilung
verfasst am: 25.06.2008, 16:20
Registrierdatum: 25.06.2008, 16:19

 Beiträge: 8
Hello everyone,

I have been watching this project for a longtime, never bothered posting because i thought it would end up like everyother project i followed :(

Any way, About underwater battles,this will also make the player try to manage better its base placement. since now you really have to cover teh whole world. Of course radar (Sonar if underwater base) needs to be research and improve.

I think it would be great if you allow missions to take place under water not only, attack in the areas where there is still oxygen (althought that will be the only thing you could do initially), but as research progresses, you will see the need for resaerching and developing undewater battle gear.

It think it will be a matter of blending UFO:EU and TFTD, thus creating a multi-enviroment and also imporving craft design.

Ok so this is what i think:

1) Penalize units depending on how many underwater missions they have perform, for example you have a expert shooter, on ground his accuracy is 85%, however on his first mission in a fully underwater enviroment his accuracy would be like 45%, and do like a 5-10% increment per mission such that it will take him about 5-9 battles to become adapted to teh water environment, during this time that units are penalized stats will not increase.
What i mean is first i do not know how you are improving stats, either doing randomly depending on action in the battlefield or from training or the user gets to pick which stat should be imrpoved (i.e. ufo:et). Second a unit that is doing underwater mission and is penalized will not get the its stats to increase or maybe the will but also at a penalized rate, until that unit is fully proficient in that enviroment.

Also underwater gear by deafult or initially is bulkier/heavier also penalizing movement and reaction. that is until better gear is resaerched.

2) improve the resaerch tree to include underwater equipment, (crafts, weapons, armour)
About the research tree (I like to call it web)

Allow a little more intricacy to research, design and manufacture weapons or equipment.
This is what i think should be implemented.

+ Weapons is captured from alien

While researching a weapons allow the probability of the weapons exploding (57%), being damage
(38%) and gather some useful information (5%)
Thus when the weapon explodes it might actually kill 1 or more scientist and a new weapons is required in order to continue research, if the weapon is damage then a new weapon is required in order to continue research.

It is assumed that if this is the second weapon being researched then the percentages change as such exploding (30%), damage (55%) useful (15%)

It is assumed that if this is the third weapon being researched then the percentages change as such exploding (10%), damage (45%) useful (45%)

It is assumed that if this is the fourth weapon being researched then the percentages change as such exploding (5%), damage (35%) useful (60%) and so on. (These are just proposed values actual values may vary)

Once the weapon has been researched and all useful information acquire a few things might develop.

1) Allow the use of the weapon by our unit (that is if it is possible to use the weapon by our units) by this i mean we should make some weapons physically impossible for our units to use maybe they are too heavy or they do not have a trigger mechanism than fits our physiology.
2) If not usable allow the research for a hybrid weapons using their tech that will fit us.
3) Of course make new branches of the research web available for research.

Manufacturing

1) Prototyping (Since we are in a battle situation we must at least test the weapons before full production and since we do not have much time once a weapon is created it will need to be field tested.

Thus i propose that after research is done a prototype of the new weapons will be created (max 3) the prototype(s) will be taken to the battle field. During the battle field the weapons has a chance of malfunctioning (i.e. jamming, exploding or not functioning at all) a scenario could be the weapon malfunctions and instead of a perfect aimed shot you were going for the weapon does a full spread emptying out the mag, in any direction remember casualties can occur. Thus the reason of having multiple prototypes, so that when done testing all this info can be brought back to base for analysis.

2) Reexamination of the weapon which will provide the results maybe a few extra hours of research, to iron out a few kinks and bugs.
3) Production (obvious)

And last thing allow for weapons mods (upgrades)

For example lets says you research your plasma weapons and find out what type of power source it uses, one of your genius scientist decides to put that power source in a laser rifle, wham!!!!! teh new power source allows improved power output to the laser, increasing maybe damage or maybe just effective range. Another example is lets say we examine the muton or chrysalids (i think is spelled right) and from these 2 weird alien we can create a new allow maybe lighter stronger and maybe we can upgrade our armor or weapons to make them lighter or stronger or maybe more resistant to certain type of weapons... hmmm.... I think I am letting my brain run away.

Well the point is make the research web more intricate with different paths different combinations allow the game to drag you deeper and deeper into its clutches, I know I know... ok I will stop now.

Wow... sorry for the long post didn't even realized it :S
verfasst am: 25.06.2008, 19:08
Admin, Spielsatz GalWar

Registrierdatum: 31.08.2005, 21:51

 Beiträge: 5596
Zitat: xracer
I think it would be great if you allow missions to take place under water not only, attack in the areas where there is still oxygen (althought that will be the only thing you could do initially), but as research progresses, you will see the need for resaerching and developing undewater battle gear.

The only thing preventing this at the moment is the availability of grafics. And the few artists we have won't be able to make underwater tiles and pictures because they have more than enough work ahead of them making the other neccessary grafics.
But if you can provide those pictures...

Zitat: xracer
1) Allow the use of the weapon by our unit (that is if it is possible to use the weapon by our units) by this i mean we should make some weapons physically impossible for our units to use maybe they are too heavy or they do not have a trigger mechanism than fits our physiology.
2) If not usable allow the research for a hybrid weapons using their tech that will fit us.
3) Of course make new branches of the research web available for research.

Zitat: xracer
For example lets says you research your plasma weapons and find out what type of power source it uses, one of your genius scientist decides to put that power source in a laser rifle, wham!!!!! teh new power source allows improved power output to the laser, increasing maybe damage or maybe just effective range. Another example is lets say we examine the muton or chrysalids (i think is spelled right) and from these 2 weird alien we can create a new allow maybe lighter stronger and maybe we can upgrade our armor or weapons to make them lighter or stronger or maybe more resistant to certain type of weapons... hmmm.... I think I am letting my brain run away.

Well the point is make the research web more intricate with different paths different combinations allow the game to drag you deeper and deeper into its clutches,

All points mentioned above are already existing and in use (although some of them only in german gamesets linked here in the forums, not in the "Galactic War", the only one translated to english beside the much older testing gameset).
verfasst am: 25.06.2008, 19:16
Spielsatz Darkage

Registrierdatum: 01.03.2005, 13:47

 Beiträge: 1846
Zitat: xracer
Wow... sorry for the long post didn't even realized it :S

Lets divide the answer then ;)

Have you really played the game? It seems not.
Zitat: xracer
some weapons physically impossible for our units


exist, 2 and 3 also. A real Equipment-unit connection is planned
Zitat: xracer
the probability of the weapons exploding...

I hate it
Zitat: xracer
And last thing allow for weapons mods (upgrades)

Thats also possible, partly used, but it takes an awfully lot of time for a real "techweb". A bit less with the new science_api, but...
Zitat: xracer
1) Prototyping

is discussed

Underwater: Battles underwater possible, but not with devided weapons/bases etc.
And dont forget: That means nearly double(!!) work for the gameset.
verfasst am: 25.06.2008, 22:38
Registrierdatum: 25.06.2008, 16:19

 Beiträge: 8
Zitat: DirkF

The only thing preventing this at the moment is the availability of grafics. And the few artists we have won't be able to make underwater tiles and pictures because they have more than enough work ahead of them making the other neccessary grafics.
But if you can provide those pictures...

Hmm... I am not artist or programmer, however could you elaborate on what would be required, and the required specs, maybe i can convince a friend to do some dirty work. "no no stolen art"

Zitat: LennStar

Have you really played the game? It seems not.

No, I never claimed to have played the game i believe i downloaded once long ago, but i have been just looking and that is all. I tried to educate myself about the game by reading the forums that is all.
Zitat: LennStar

Underwater: Battles underwater possible, but not with devided weapons/bases etc.
And dont forget: That means nearly double(!!) work for the gameset.

True, However you may not have to really divide or create a new web, simply "adjust it"
Maybe this will give you and insight on what i mean, go to google/patents and search 6868790 :) hope you like it.
verfasst am: 26.06.2008, 06:49
Admin, Spielsatz GalWar

Registrierdatum: 31.08.2005, 21:51

 Beiträge: 5596
Zitat: xracer
No, I never claimed to have played the game i believe i downloaded once long ago, but i have been just looking

Zitat: xracer
Hmm... I am not artist or programmer, however could you elaborate on what would be required, and the required specs,

I think you should play it a while first, that will give you a better understanding on what is needed for grafics in ground combat missions.

As for your other ideas: there are a lot of differences between description and implementation of a feature. Something that might look easy in a description could be one hell of a programing problem, while other things that look difficult in a description are the work of a few minutes.
And we are a very small team - we simply don't have the capacity to implement everything thought of. Because of this we need a reason why we should implement any feature.
And that is an answer you haven't given in your list.

And no - "sounds fun" or "is realistic" are not sufficient reasons ;-)
We need a game reason - what does the player get from the feature? If the answer is "a lot of work for a little bit realism" then the answer is almost automatically no...
verfasst am: 26.06.2008, 15:47
Registrierdatum: 25.06.2008, 16:19

 Beiträge: 8
Hello,

I definitely understand your point of view and so I downloaded the game and play it for a few hours (maybe is just my game testing instincts coming back :) ).

Please keep in mind I have not read the manual nor read any info on how to play the game.

The initial menu to start a new game is not bad although to set you initial base (and any other bases)instead of doing it in that small earth map, I think it should be done in the actual geoscape. Makes it just a little better to know exactly where you are placing the base. But as I said is not that there is anything wrong with it just for my point of view is just too tiny.

Second, Please disable the free motion of the escape, I certainly want to be able to pan around the world but with the current setting it just freaky :), I think you should allow full rotation on the X-axis (360 degrees) and only allow a 45 degree rotation above and below the Y-axis (assuming you have made the north pole +X and the South pole -X.

Third, I noticed you have a zoom feature implemented, this I am not sure if you have zoom levels or magnification, the reason I am not sure is that my mouse doesn't have a wheel like every other mouse so when I tried to zoom in it went directly to the max zoom, so I do not know if you have multiple levels or just those 2.

Fourth, this one is just a preference, I realized that whenever a craft enter a battle situation you have multiple screens popping up asking you to take many actions, although it gives you "a little better control of the combat" it makes it far too redundant. To overcome this aspect I think, first make the little dots actual models of crafts from a very far distance very tiny but when you zoom in you can actually see the craft/UFO, second to deal with the many screens by allowing the combat to happen in "real time" I see you have done all the math for it, I think some code adjustment, allow the crafts to fire from a distance. All the calculation and RNG already exits so no new code for that. This will also allow multiple craft to team up against a single craft.


Getting off the geoscape, I do give you props for all the work in creating the menu/submenus and organizing them.

First, I saw that you have a nice structure to create/add modules to your bases, however I think to make the game just a little more attractive allow an isometric perspective of your base.

Second, when assigning research task or manufacturing projects, I think you should not create this windows in full screen, it makes it feel like you completely left an area, at first I though I had to reopen the first menu until I saw the little "x" on the top right. Intuitively I thought there should be a cancel/close/back button but because it went into full screen it threw me off for a little. Also I think if these windows are smaller gives you a feeling you are still in the research/manufacturing areas.

OK now getting to a different subject, maybe is a bug maybe, or just because I set the game to hard or maybe is just my bad luck, or maybe is a combo of all 3.
While in the geoscape an UFO was detected I dispatched 2 crafts, and then ghost was detected and so I dispatched 2 more crafts. I reached my enemies when through the disable this message windows and simulate the combat, and won. And wham another UFO is detected and now chasing me it catches up to me but I kill it, and then another UFO is detected and now chasing me again it catches up to me but I kill it again!!! I was lucky and had 1 ammo left and then another UFO is detected and now chasing me it catches up to me and this time it kills me, so I set my second unit to destroy, and this whole process happens again and again and again. UFOs keep spawning right after I kill the last one. Furthermore I destroyed approximately 10-14 UFO yet there were no crash sites. In the end I lost all my fighters.

So it is a bug, did I make the game too hard or it was just my bad luck.

Ok I think this is enough for now.

Please keep in mind this is not saying your game is not good is great except for me dying so much :P

I can't say anything about the battlescape since I never got to one. :(

WOW... man these posts are huge... I only do that when I like something :)
verfasst am: 26.06.2008, 16:19
Registrierdatum: 01.07.2005, 16:56

 Beiträge: 182
Just my two cents:

1) I second that, it's good as it is, but placing bases on the gescape woukld be cooler.

2) Yes, but after a while, you get used to it, i have no problems turning the globe where i want and with the orientation i want.

3) With a mouse wheel, there are several zoom levels, its progressive.

4) Which multiple screens do you mean? After starting a simulation, there is only one additional screen, the simulation itself.
Simulationg on the globe would be cool, and would add several features (attacking using the ranges) but at first sombody has to specificate and implementing it, and i am sure there would be problems which would be hard to dela with.
However, it would be cool...

So, i'll stop here :)
verfasst am: 26.06.2008, 16:21
Registrierdatum: 16.07.2007, 16:03

 Beiträge: 86
Zitat: xracer
OK now getting to a different subject, maybe is a bug maybe, or just because I set the game to hard or maybe is just my bad luck, or maybe is a combo of all 3.
While in the geoscape an UFO was detected I dispatched 2 crafts, and then ghost was detected and so I dispatched 2 more crafts. I reached my enemies when through the disable this message windows and simulate the combat, and won. And wham another UFO is detected and now chasing me it catches up to me but I kill it, and then another UFO is detected and now chasing me again it catches up to me but I kill it again!!! I was lucky and had 1 ammo left and then another UFO is detected and now chasing me it catches up to me and this time it kills me, so I set my second unit to destroy, and this whole process happens again and again and again. UFOs keep spawning right after I kill the last one. Furthermore I destroyed approximately 10-14 UFO yet there were no crash sites. In the end I lost all my fighters.

So it is a bug, did I make the game too hard or it was just my bad luck.


none of the three, its just the wrong tactic. The main UFO produces ghost and uses them as a weapon, so you have to intercept the UFO from the front, because if you chase behind it, is has lots of time to produce more ghosts.
(though it might be that the game is not very well balanced yet)

Zitat: xracer
Second, Please disable the free motion of the escape, I certainly want to be able to pan around the world but with the current setting it just freaky :), I think you should allow full rotation on the X-axis (360 degrees) and only allow a 45 degree rotation above and below the Y-axis (assuming you have made the north pole +X and the South pole -X


I agree, it's just mad..
verfasst am: 26.06.2008, 18:32 · Edited by: DirkF
Admin, Spielsatz GalWar

Registrierdatum: 31.08.2005, 21:51

 Beiträge: 5596
Several of your wishes are already entered in our bug-tracking-system, but that is mostly in German and you probably can't read those entries.

Zitat: xracer
first make the little dots actual models of crafts from a very far distance very tiny but when you zoom in you can actually see the craft/UFO, second to deal with the many screens by allowing the combat to happen in "real time" I see you have done all the math for it, I think some code adjustment, allow the crafts to fire from a distance. All the calculation and RNG already exits so no new code for that. This will also allow multiple craft to team up against a single craft.

sorry - wrong on all assumptions on how much coding is neccessary to do this. To implement this a lot of additional code is necessesary. The calculations are the smallest part of the code for such a combat - especially as you can't stop the time in geoscape for such a combat (it is stopped now), that creates one hell of problems if we even try to implement such a combat...

Zitat: xracer
OK now getting to a different subject, maybe is a bug maybe, or just because I set the game to hard or maybe is just my bad luck, or maybe is a combo of all 3.
While in the geoscape an UFO was detected I dispatched 2 crafts, and then ghost was detected and so I dispatched 2 more crafts. I reached my enemies when through the disable this message windows and simulate the combat, and won. And wham another UFO is detected and now chasing me it catches up to me but I kill it, and then another UFO is detected and now chasing me again it catches up to me but I kill it again!!! I was lucky and had 1 ammo left and then another UFO is detected and now chasing me it catches up to me and this time it kills me, so I set my second unit to destroy, and this whole process happens again and again and again. UFOs keep spawning right after I kill the last one. Furthermore I destroyed approximately 10-14 UFO yet there were no crash sites. In the end I lost all my fighters.

It is a part of bad luck, but not where you think it is. There are six different races in the Galactic War at the moment, and five of them use more or less ordinary UFOs like those in the original game.
You had the bad luck to get an UFO from the only race that uses remote controlled satellites to defend the weaker main ships. Shooting down a single ghost is easy, but they are mass-produced and tend to wear down your fighter if you simply follow the main UFO. You need to estimate where the UFO will fly to and position your fighters to intercept it from the front instead of following it, then you should be able to reach the main UFO with less battles.

And you'll never get a ground combat from one of those satellites, they are too small for that...
Try to start again and with UFOs from the other races you should have less problems getting to ground combat.

And yes, the UFOs are not fully balanced - but I need to get in the missing races (yes, plural) with their special UFOs before I can start balancing them.
verfasst am: 27.06.2008, 02:03
Registrierdatum: 25.06.2008, 16:19

 Beiträge: 8
Wow... see now that is a nice feature :) no wonder i was able to kill a couple of them and no ghost was recreated... that is what happens when you don't read the manuals :)

But more power to you that is a great feature!!!! and no way I will restart the game now, this just made it more interesting!!!! Kudos to whoever thought of this idea.

[quote:DirkF] sorry - wrong on all assumptions on how much coding is neccessary to do this. To implement this a lot of additional code is necessesary. The calculations are the smallest part of the code for such a combat - especially as you can't stop the time in geoscape for such a combat (it is stopped now), that creates one hell of problems if we even try to implement such a combat... [/quote]

Probably you are right i can't argue as mentioned i am not a programmer but surely it would be nice if implemented but as you mentioned too much code for small features are not necessary at this time.

I will see if i can put in a few hours tonight and see if i can actually get a mission
verfasst am: 27.06.2008, 07:52
Admin, Spielsatz GalWar

Registrierdatum: 31.08.2005, 21:51

 Beiträge: 5596
Zitat: xracer
and no way I will restart the game now, this just made it more interesting

Well, you'll get those UFOs always if you start on difficult (only on easy and normal some of the enemies are randomly deactivated, making each game a bit different).

But if you lost so many planes on your first UFO this can cause some problems - the galactic war is a difficult gameset, and while it does adapt to the success of the player in a limited way, having an insufficient number of fighters early in the game will place you at a disadvantage which will take a lot of effort to compensate.

Basically the difference is that later in the game the choice of attacking UFOs depends on how many UFOs you already have shot down, but in the early stages that selection depends on how many UFOs manage to escape with valuable data from earth.

If you don't have enough planes to actively search for the alien scouts and shoot them down, the small warships will appear a lot more earlier in the game. This will give you less time to research the hybrid technologies needed to shoot them down - but since you can't effectively shoot them down the game then stays at the first warship selection until you manage to catch up.

To do this you have to ignore the warships that you can't shoot down without loosing many planes and concentrate on the smaller UFOs until you have enough artefacts researched to enable the advanced research options (TechCenter)
verfasst am: 03.07.2008, 02:30
Registrierdatum: 03.09.2007, 07:28

 Beiträge: 22
the difficulty on those ghosts in the beginning is probably the most difficult thing in the game, even after I research my advanced tech, I still have trouble with them, though, not sure how you would balance them, other than making the ghosts take a bit longer to rebuild.
verfasst am: 03.07.2008, 17:33
Registrierdatum: 25.06.2008, 16:19

 Beiträge: 8
ok,

So you were somewhat right, however i am a maniac for hard games, so i kept on going with my current game, and almost turning the tide (in the early part of the game that is).

Ghost are still giving me a hard time but i have been able to take down a few UFOs.

One thing i was not aware was taht every craft must be manufactured? i was trying to purchase craft and realized i can't. I think there should be an option to buy the initial craft instead of having to manufacture them.

About the ground assault i have a few ideas but only played 3 missions (no casualties may I add) so my opinion on it still debatable.

changing the subject back to suggestions:
The loadout screen is not intuitive, (i will try to make a mock up and present it to you guys). Also and this is just advise since you have all the inforamtion available to the player make it a bit more stylized. scale up the unit in the middle.
Anyway i will write up a more thorough suggestion when i get a few more missions completed and as i mentioned maybe i will make a few mock-ups of a GUI keeping of course with your original ideas.

In any csae I still like the game and i think it is doing great!!!

Oh by the way i like that you automatically update the production once a better/upgraded item has research.
verfasst am: 03.07.2008, 19:22
Admin, Spielsatz GalWar

Registrierdatum: 31.08.2005, 21:51

 Beiträge: 5596
Zitat: xracer
Oh by the way i like that you automatically update the production once a better/upgraded item has research

That will only happen if something has been entered that way, XForce has several options on how to handle Updates and new weapons.

Zitat: xracer
changing the subject back to suggestions:

Please do so - XForce is still in development after all.
I made a German post today announcing that the next update for the galactic war will be a script- and balancing-update, with no or only a few new researches. But because of the balancing update I want to know if something appears to be wrong or out of line with other options.

By the way - you need to focus on researching artefacts to get to the techcenter and choose your main technologies if you want to get the advanced equipment. And depending on what you choose you'll get different equipment, so you can play XForce several times and still get other research projects...
verfasst am: 03.07.2008, 22:09 · Edited by: xracer
Registrierdatum: 25.06.2008, 16:19

 Beiträge: 8
Hey i know i said i will do some mock up but looking at old old stuff that we were working on i ran across this

Agent loadout mockup


Is something i worked on long ago but the project fell apart we tried to contact you back then but we were doing C++ and you Delphi i think, and since i am not a programmer :P

anyway is nostalgia now.

But i will look at certainly doing some mock-ups for real for you guys maybe you will like it and implemented. ;)



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